The Board Game Interview Room: Daimyo Senso with Nathan Lusk

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The Board Game Interview Room: Daimyo Senso with Nathan Lusk

daimyo_senso

In this episode I am joined by Nathan Lusk to talk about his Asian themed boardgame called Daimyo Senso and his quest to have it fully manufactured in the USA.

I got to ask him about the game and how it plays, but also about his reasons to want to keep it national and what have been the struggles.

TRANSCRIPT BELOW

00:00:36:21 – 00:00:56:24

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In this episode, I speak with Nathan Lusk, who’s made Daimyo Senso, an all-American made game that’s based in Asia. I’m pleased the players in the roles of a journalist who must fight to get their victory points and wing their battles.

00:00:57:19 – 00:01:15:07

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I was very interested in Nathan, not just because the game sounds actually quite interesting, but because he’s one of the few people who’ve made the games completely in the US without counting or counting at all with China. And that is something that we’ve been saying that a lot of people should do or want to do, but don’t

00:01:15:07 – 00:01:33:07

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know how. So there were a lot of questions that I had to ask whether you agree or not with the idea of doing things without counting on some service providers or not. I think Nathan’s input is actually very, very interesting.

00:01:33:16 – 00:01:53:09

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And don’t get me wrong, I do ask some very hard questions on this one. So yep, I didn’t know who my punches and I hope very much indeed that you enjoy this interview if you would like to be featured or to sponsor or participate in the podcast.

00:01:53:10 – 00:02:16:07

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Please, please, please send me a message podcast at GMA’s Magazine Dot Com because we would love to hear from you. You can also find me on Twitter at GMES Magazine. My co-host, who is not in this episode is Chris Diaz, and he is Art Diaz Ex Machina on Twitter.

00:02:16:13 – 00:02:56:11

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And please leave our reviewing whatever platform you happen to listen to the podcast. It really helps a lot, and it means the world to us. We look forward to hearing from you. Thank you very, very much. Nathan, welcome to the show after this is the second attempt, so twice looking on a number of technical issues, that’s thank

00:02:56:11 – 00:03:22:15

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goodness we are not life. Otherwise, it would be very irritating. Yeah. How are you, sir? Very good. Thanks for. Thanks for having me on your show. I really appreciate this opportunity. It’s quite a ride. I’m quite excited to have you because you presented a very interesting case of a bored gamer, very small producer who is actually producing

00:03:22:15 – 00:03:42:22

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everything within the United States rather than going to China, which is what’s traditionally happening. But before we go into how you got to that point. I’m very interested in finding out a little bit about you, about your background as a gamer and the reasons why you’re actually doing this.

00:03:43:07 – 00:04:02:08

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So who are you? OK? I am. Gosh, so many of your listeners would probably think I’m very what’s the term I want to use country? I guess I was born and raised in West Texas. I’m 44 years old and I still live in my hometown.

00:04:03:09 – 00:04:25:07

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I have lived other places, but I live in my hometown again as an adult and I have been playing video games since I was. I want to say ten years old is when I got my first Nintendo and it was very it was a really unique opportunity at the time because we lived in a small house.

00:04:25:07 – 00:04:42:04

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I have an older brother. And there were only three bedrooms total. So, you know, my parents had the master bedroom. My brother, since he was older, took the bigger of the other two bedrooms. And then as the younger one, I got what was left over and it was to call it a room is an overstatement.

00:04:42:04 – 00:04:58:06

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It was a large closet. Okay? And it was also the it was the room where my parents had decided they wanted to put all of our old dictionaries and encyclopedias. And so some of the space was taken up by that already.

00:04:58:06 – 00:05:12:16

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So it was even smaller and there was just enough space for me to have a small bed, a night table. And they allowed me since I had the smaller room to put a small. I was probably eleven inch TV.

00:05:13:08 – 00:05:23:21

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And then when we got our first Nintendo, it got to go in my room because I had the TV and I had the small room. So that was kind of my gift for for taken, you know, the short end of that stick.

00:05:24:14 – 00:05:42:00

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And so I got way further into it than my brother ever did. And my my love of the competition that you have in video games at that time, you know, there was no internet, there was nothing online and it was just a gaming was a whole different animal.

00:05:42:20 – 00:06:10:02

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And. But I learned about strategy and tactics in different genres of games, different settings, that games could be put in different mechanics that you see in different video games. All of that experience from the age of ten, all the way to about 30, I want to say it was around 3433 that I made my first board game

00:06:11:19 – 00:06:31:11

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and I was able to kind of take some of those interests and mash them together into something. I felt like I wanted to play, but play with my friends in person face to face where we could enjoy ourselves, have a meal together, make it a whole evening of gaming together because you don’t ever really do that with

00:06:31:11 – 00:06:45:12

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video games. There was a very brief period where a lot of people would do that with their Xboxes in a game like Halo, because you could end with the old X-Box is the only way to play against each other was to link your Xboxes together.

00:06:46:02 – 00:06:55:10

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We used to have Xbox parties at my house every once in a while, but that only lasted a year or two. And then that game was old. No one played games like that anymore, and it just kind of fell out.

00:06:56:01 – 00:07:13:07

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And board games are now the only way to really get people together, have a meal and then all participate in one thing altogether. Even if you’re playing against each other, you’re still playing the game together and, you know, be able to do it either.

00:07:13:20 – 00:07:26:09

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The way I prefer to do it, which is very intensely, let’s play the game. Shut up talking about everything else. Put that food down and don’t get my bored. Don’t get it on my game. Or you can play it very casually, which is what I’ve been told.

00:07:26:09 – 00:07:42:24

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A lot of other people like to do so, and I feel like I’ve just built off of that long background of video games. And then when I started getting interested in board games, I was able to have a broader mind about them because of a long history of gaming experience.

00:07:42:24 – 00:07:56:05

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Before that, I hope. I hope I’m right. I don’t know. Well, I’m sure. Hope so. Well, I suppose the critics of your games would be able to tell you that when, when they play it and they they give you some, some feedback.

00:07:56:06 – 00:08:17:14

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So what made you want to publish your current game? You know, have you have you published anything before that ever? No, no, this is this is the first game that’s going public, and Daniel, since so ironically is not a game I’ve had for a terribly long time.

00:08:18:02 – 00:08:42:14

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Okay. In fact, next month, this is going to sound crazy to some of your audience, but it’s the truth. Next month will be the one year anniversary of the conception of the game, like the very first thought of the game will be in November, and it is very recent and in something that’s going to market, that’s being

00:08:42:14 – 00:09:02:01

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manufactured for it to not even be a year old concept yet is kind of crazy. And I understand that and I probably did some things with the cart before the horse. I understand that too. But. The game came out of me as a very polished finished concept.

00:09:02:19 – 00:09:20:19

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It was so simple in its mechanical design and yet so deep in its strategic design that I wanted to go ahead and get get an artist to put some artwork on it for me to see what it would look like and see how it would work.

00:09:20:19 – 00:09:44:04

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And she got it done within a few months. And I was I actually had the idea for the game in November. I printed the first prototype in November. The artwork was finished in February. And it was done. I have made a few changes to it, of course, over those few months, but added a single player experience.

00:09:45:00 – 00:09:57:05

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I added some other other really neat things that changed a couple of the specialty cards. And then as it was, it was done. It had been played, tested up, forced all of my friends to play it with me, my my board gaming friends.

00:09:57:15 – 00:10:13:11

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We played at practically every week for months and got a lot of plays in. Had some other people play it that are other people. I’m I wouldn’t know that say that they’re friends of mine, but they’re people that know me pretty well and know that this is something I’m interested in and offered to take a copy of

00:10:13:11 – 00:10:34:07

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the prototype and play it. And the feedback and also shipped some prototypes out to other places. So I did all of this in a really short span. And I did it on a very short budget and got all of that out of the way as fast as I could, and then and then I never I never intended

00:10:34:07 – 00:10:47:18

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to publish a board game in my life, but I’ve now made so many that I kind of thought I would really hate for all this time and effort race to be gone when I die. This ferry now. OK, so tell me about the sense.

00:10:47:22 – 00:11:03:15

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What does it, what is it all about with how does he play? It is based on 16th century Japan, which is one of my most. I am intimately familiar with Japanese history. It is one of my real passions in life.

00:11:03:15 – 00:11:16:03

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I always tell people when they’re first, when I first meet them or first become friends with them, or first play a game with them that my I love my wife dearly. She’s really awesome. But my first true love was the samurai.

00:11:16:16 – 00:11:29:19

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And. It is part of that board. I’m sorry, video game background that I have a lot of the games that I liked the most were these old school Nintendo games about Japanese history, which is what got me into it.

00:11:30:08 – 00:11:44:18

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I’ve also been to Japan twice. I love the place. I have nothing but fond memories of it and great pictures. At least I think they’re great. A lot of people think they’re boring. And so it was a natural way.

00:11:44:18 – 00:12:09:08

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It was a natural setting for me to put my first game out, and it just happened to be the right one, unintentionally happened to be the first one to get finished. And I realized after just immediately after its conception, when I had my first prototype and played it that first time, I just kind of realized that this

00:12:09:08 – 00:12:26:23

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is this is one that’s going to have to be done. It’s going to have to be finished. To answer your question a little bit better and a little bit shorter because I get long winded. As you’ve already noticed by the intent of the game, there’s two different ways to play.

00:12:27:01 – 00:12:45:06

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one is to play for a total of four game years. And the winner at the end of those four years is the one who has the most honor. And you acquire Honor by taking over fortresses, cities and castles that are and they’re each worth a different amount of honor.

00:12:45:06 – 00:13:00:16

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Fortresses are worth one, cities are worth two and castles are worth three. That’s one way to play the game, and it makes for a nice, tight, short game. Where you can actually play a full eight player game in less than two hours.

00:13:01:08 – 00:13:15:12

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The other way to play the game is to do, I guess, what most bored gamers would call the more traditional method of warfare kind of game area control game where you play until you’re the only player left standing.

00:13:16:09 – 00:13:40:00

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That version, of course, generally takes longer. And. That aspect doesn’t appeal to a lot of people, especially in modern gaming. But there’s a whole genre of people. There’s a whole section of people who actually prefer that genre to who want to play a game that might take them four to six hours because they want that epic.

00:13:40:14 – 00:14:00:02

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Oh my gosh. The struggle was so hard, but finally, one feeling. And so this is a game that can actually provide both. You can have a short tight. We’re done in two hours, so we actually have time to play something else or we have this long extended epic, long play that is even more gratifying at the end

00:14:00:02 – 00:14:17:19

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because of what it took you to get there. What are the basic mechanics or mechanisms that you have designed for for the game? How does it play? Super simple once. So I say simple, and then I’m now I’m stumbling over how to explain it.

00:14:18:09 – 00:14:33:06

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Each player takes four actions per year. The reason I’m stumbling so much is because you can you. Technically, there’s two ways to do this, too. I have a lot of optional rules in the game intentionally because I want players to be able to play the game that they want to play.

00:14:34:05 – 00:14:54:10

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In my world there and not be forced to play the game a way that they don’t like it. So the short and fast version that I mentioned earlier, where you played it for four years and you play to an honor victory, that particular style lends itself also to what I call the standard rules of the game.

00:14:54:20 – 00:15:17:16

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And if you’re playing a standard rules game of Daniel Sinto, each of your eight different factions has a different order in which they take their turns since every player gets four turns per year. I have actually there’s a grid on the map that tells you, depending on which faction you are and what season it is, exactly what

00:15:17:16 – 00:15:31:07

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you have to do that term. And it’s between three things attack, deploy or move in all. And I know what you’re thinking. That’s only three actions, but you said there’s four while attack gets put on there twice for everybody.

00:15:31:16 – 00:15:48:05

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So in an average year, you make two attacks, one deploy in one move and. They all have those four actions in a different order. So the a standard game, you do what the game tells you to do. And a lot of people there are hung up on.

00:15:48:13 – 00:15:59:06

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Well, then that means that my opponent knows what I’m going to do. I don’t like that aspect. I want to be able to choose what I do and I and I counter with this. Yeah. He does know what you’re going to do.

00:16:00:21 – 00:16:23:16

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But you also know what he’s going to do, you know, when vengeance is coming. You can prepare for it. It’s it actually heightens the strategy and it speeds up the game because a lot of people get I can’t remember what the term for it is unless it versus there it is, analysis paralysis on deciding what they’re going

00:16:23:16 – 00:16:33:21

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to do when it’s their turn. Well, I take at least that part out of it, and the only thing you have to figure out is where and exactly how much you’re going to do what you have to do.

00:16:34:17 – 00:16:48:23

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So in a standard game that speeds up turns really a lot faster. That’s also partly how we get it condensed down to where you can actually play the whole game in less than two hours. And then in a nonstandard game, I call that the optional rules system.

00:16:48:23 – 00:17:04:02

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And of course, all this is in the rulebook. And an optional rule system, there are cards that come with the game. There’s four cards for each time, you know, each faction. And those cards are just attack, attack, deploy and move.

00:17:04:12 – 00:17:18:04

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And so when it’s your turn, you play one of those and then it stays on the board until the end of the year. And then at the end of the year, everyone picks their actions back up. And when the next year starts, you have all four actions available to you again.

00:17:18:18 – 00:17:29:01

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And what that does is it for the people that absolutely don’t want to play where you have to do what the game tells you to do when it’s your turn? You have the option of choosing what you do every turn.

00:17:29:10 – 00:17:49:14

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And that also brings up some more options that can come out later. But that’s a different conversation. So. Short game, long game, iron clad actions, every turn or flexibility do what you want every turn so far. I didn’t do this because I’m indecisive.

00:17:49:14 – 00:18:07:03

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I’m do. I do this because. There’s a lot of board games that I’ve played that make you do things a certain way that I sometimes feel like, gosh, if that one part was just different or if I could just do this instead of that, I would really.

00:18:08:05 – 00:18:26:21

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Appreciate the strategy of it more or like the game more somehow. And so I leave that flexibility to the people that are playing the game to decide which which mechanical version of it they want to play. I think ultimately, I like the idea of a game being able to be played in two different modes.

00:18:26:21 – 00:18:43:13

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You know, the all the games out there that do exactly the same thing, like the first thing that springs to mind is a thrown in which you have a set tile pattern that you have to fall on one side of the board and then completely go free, fall on the other side of the board.

00:18:43:13 – 00:19:05:09

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And that gives you really much, much greater depth to how you’re going to arrange your path. So I think that is a very good technique to actually make sure the analysis policy is is less prevalent. And then you give a longer lifespan to the game because when you get fed up with playing with the rules being tight

00:19:05:09 – 00:19:26:05

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, then open it up. And that’s robins, which is great. How many players does it play and how does it escalate between players? I’ll give you options so you can play by yourself, actually. There are eight different DeMeo in the game.

00:19:27:11 – 00:19:48:10

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And so when you play a single player campaign, you can start that campaign from eight different positions on the map based on those eight different you in those eight different time you also have. Not only is their geography different, but one of the things we haven’t talked about yet is that not only do you have the basic

00:19:48:10 – 00:20:05:23

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moves attack, attack, move and deploy that you can do on your turn, but you also have special moves there, called general cards. And I call them that because each one is represented is the representation of a particular general or that Damian himself.

00:20:06:04 – 00:20:30:09

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Each time Joe was also obviously a battlefield general themselves, but in something unique about them that allows them to do something that is far more magnified than your basic moves. For instance, Nobunaga is general card ODA Nobunaga. He’s one of the factions that’s probably the one samurai that most of your listeners would be most familiar with.

00:20:32:18 – 00:20:45:03

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When you make an attack, you deal damage equal to the size of your army cut in half, and that’s how many troops you kill. So if you have 1010 troops in your army and they attack someone, you kill five, right?

00:20:45:04 – 00:21:05:04

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Very simple. That’s the hardest math we’re going to talk about today, I promise. And then Nobunaga is a general card. His special ability, if you will, as once you’re only allowed to play a general card once per year and once you played one, it’s out of the game forever, so you can’t play it again later on in

00:21:05:04 – 00:21:24:06

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the game with with exceptions, because of course, there are optional rules for that. But his general card says that make an attack and then make a second attack. So, right, but that’s just the most basic one that I could come up with on the top of my head.

00:21:24:18 – 00:21:37:24

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But you could technically use that in the very first year of the game and instead of, you know, using your six guys to kill three and he still got three left there. Now screw that. I’ve got six guys, you’ve got six guys, I’m hitting them.

00:21:37:24 – 00:21:56:21

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Once I hit him twice, they’re all dead. I get that land now. And so each of the general cards in the game are unique since each time Yo has four general cards. That means there are 32 unique special abilities in the game when you play the single player campaign.

00:21:57:13 – 00:22:08:19

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It it. It wasn’t designed for this, but it’s really good at this. It’s a really neat way for a new player to learn the mechanics of the game, learn the strategy of the game, kind of get accustomed to the geography of the map.

00:22:09:16 – 00:22:26:24

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And it’s also really difficult. You have to really get good at the strategy of the game to be able to win the single player campaigns, especially to win with all eight times. So it goes from one player all the way up to eight.

00:22:27:09 – 00:22:51:22

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And I also have believe this or not, an optional setup, right where where if you’re playing with fewer than eight players. So let’s say three, if you’re playing with three players, then you actually can. Under the standard rules, you can play with just this one small section of the map, which is south west Japan, which includes the

00:22:51:22 – 00:23:12:09

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islands of Kyushu, Shikoku and then western Honshu. Honshu is the main island of Japan, and so you’re only fighting with three different didio in that one little section of the map. Or if you want to go with the optional setup rules, you can actually populate the entire map with far more armies than a standard setup.

00:23:12:13 – 00:23:29:14

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Almost every land has armies on it and then use the entire map no matter how many players you have. But you’re you’re now having to not just fight each other, but fight through these static armies that are already there holding provinces, so two different ways to play it.

00:23:29:20 – 00:23:49:11

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one takes longer than the other. one forces you to only fight your opponents that you’re playing with. The other one forces you to fight them, plus, if you will, air opponents. So. one to eight. And it really the the time difference, obviously less players, means a shorter game.

00:23:49:17 – 00:24:10:00

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Most of the time. But I’ve never heard of another game where eight players, a strategy game, especially where eight players can be done in two hours, just I’ve never I’ve never heard of one. I’m not saying it’s not out there, but it’s one of the things I wanted to make sure was included in this.

00:24:10:04 – 00:24:24:17

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And then that’s actually how I designed. The game originally was just under the standard rules. I added all the optional rules later, but I wanted it to be lots of players done real fast, but still function really, really well with as few as you know, two or three.

00:24:25:10 – 00:24:56:24

Desconocido

Okay. You’ve mentioned how your passion is Japanese history. Has the game been based in any particular historical period of Japan or is this completely invented? It’s the 16th century. It’s called the age of warring states. It is the time period in Japan’s history that most, not most, that a lot of the video games and historical anime and

00:24:56:24 – 00:25:10:22

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board games have been based on. Not because it’s the only cool period in Japanese history, but because it’s probably the most cool period. It’s it’s got lots of heroes, lots of legends about it, lots of mythos around it.

00:25:10:22 – 00:25:27:14

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And it’s a it’s got some cool characters in it, too. It was just a it’s a really neat period to have a game set and I I am afraid there’s a little bit of saturation in the market about it, but it’s also my favorite period.

00:25:27:14 – 00:25:47:07

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So and I like playing there, even if I’m playing there, you know, in four or five different, completely different games. But the reason why I was asking is because it is right now quite important to make sure that all the cultural sensitivities have been taken care of.

00:25:47:20 – 00:26:03:07

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Because let’s face it, we have been burned many times by Westerners writing games and designing games about Japan and Asia in general, basically sucking it up. What on how have you done it to make sure that that is not the case?

00:26:04:15 – 00:26:29:21

Desconocido

I did not include any cultural relevance in the game. Let me start with that. I didn’t want to have an essay on Japanese culture or even on Japanese history. Any deeper than the face value of what their conflicts looked like, though, those conflicts were the only parts that I found to be important.

00:26:30:11 – 00:27:00:02

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And those conflicts are interesting enough to build a whole world around, honestly. And so I stuck to. The black and white of. That period’s wars itself and the and the generals who fought in them and did not go beyond that because as a Japanese history and culture lover myself, I understand what you’re saying and I don’t like

00:27:00:20 – 00:27:16:05

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, I don’t like people tinkering with things and especially giving alternate versions of what I know is an historic event. And and really Jack and was something like that that’s already so well-loved and it makes a great story on its own.

00:27:16:15 – 00:27:36:02

Desconocido

Hmm. Fair enough. That’s very good. Okay. So you build a game, you play the game very quickly, which is absolutely brilliant and decide that, hey, you’re going to go completely bonkers and publish this because, hey, you don’t have anything else to do in your life, right?

00:27:39:16 – 00:28:00:17

Desconocido

Sure. Sure. I don’t think that decision’s ever that easy. But yeah, sure. OK, so you went for this, but also you went a different way because by the time that you decided to go publish this and make it a commercially viable game.

00:28:02:19 – 00:28:21:18

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We found ourselves in this little pandemic pickle that we have in our hands and a shipping crisis to boot, which has thrown a spanner in the works that nobody was either expecting or wanting. So you decided to do the whole thing in the US.

00:28:23:10 – 00:28:45:02

Desconocido

How? Where where are you? You’re in Spain, right? I. Yes. OK. I hope I didn’t just leak sensitive information there. No, I I keep inviting people to come to Valencia. I think it’s a wonderful place. Yeah, no. I mean, everybody should be coming.

00:28:45:03 – 00:28:57:24

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Yet no sensitivity at all about that. I’ve heard I’ve heard Spain is just a gorgeous country with really cool people. No, really not. No, no gorgeous country. Just cool people. Well, there’s me and my friends, the rest. But we can talk about them.

00:28:58:18 – 00:29:33:02

Desconocido

Well, that’s that’s what’s important. I was talking about you. You’re the cool people. I’m. So there’s a saying in in the United States of and there’s a lot of political. Ramifications surrounding this. And the saying is. I support American jobs, the most American manufacturing has gone by the wayside.

00:29:33:12 – 00:29:49:21

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And a lot of our products and services are manufactured in China. The majority is manufactured in China, some as manufactured in Thailand. There’s some in Korea. There’s there’s a lot of different countries that have a share of America’s manufacturing, and our companies do that because it’s cheaper.

00:29:49:21 – 00:30:00:24

Desconocido

It’s more affordable. And then all they have to do is throw the stuff on a boat by the million and ship it over here. And you know, our consumers are allowed to buy it for less. I get that and I don’t have.

00:30:02:18 – 00:30:15:20

Desconocido

For the most part, I don’t have a problem with that. I understand the market wants things cheaper and that people want the people who are selling them would also like to have them made cheaper. Yadda yadda so forth and so forth.

00:30:16:23 – 00:30:40:19

Desconocido

But I’m one of those people who is also a little bit upset that when stuff like this happens, the pandemic and the shipping crisis, that. There comes a time eventually when it’s not sustainable anymore to have everything your country uses made overseas, and there’s a few other reasons too, and I don’t want to get too detailed about

00:30:40:19 – 00:30:58:21

Desconocido

it, but. When a when a board game is manufactured in China, there’s not a guarantee. Because I don’t believe they have this, I don’t believe that they have the same amount of oversight and restrictions and regulations that most other countries do in their manufacturing.

00:30:59:05 – 00:31:16:14

Desconocido

Now I think that for the most part, the people that work in the plant and the managers of the plant are probably very conscientious people. But if there’s one person in there that’s not and a toxic chemical is introduced to pink mix or something like that happens.

00:31:18:23 – 00:31:32:10

Desconocido

I don’t know that there’s anyone willing to press the start button, throw it all away and start over like you would legally be forced to do in in in the United States or in Spain or in England. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:34:19 – 00:31:54:18

Desconocido

And while the odds of something like that happening are slim. It is possible and. When you expand out even further, if the game is made with with no problems in China, it still gets put into a shipping container and then sent on a boat for three to six months to go somewhere else.

00:31:55:08 – 00:32:09:20

Desconocido

Well, you don’t know what else is inside that shipping container with those games. You don’t know what else is on that boat, whether that boat’s going to get in a hurricane or get stuck in a canal or end up off the coast of California for seven months waiting for someone to unload it.

00:32:10:09 – 00:32:26:23

Desconocido

There’s there’s all these other issues that could be an issue. And if there’s one bad thing in that shipping container with it and now it’s going to be in there for a year. What happens to your games? What happens to the products that you paid for it now we’re going to be selling to other people.

00:32:27:17 – 00:32:44:06

Desconocido

Are you poisoning them? So all of this is extremely rare. I understand that and I’m not trying to paint a bigger picture than there is, but I will start by saying I believe in American jobs and there are board game manufacturers in the United States.

00:32:45:02 – 00:33:06:12

Desconocido

They cost more. I’ve been told by some that the quality’s not quite as good. And that occasionally they’re more difficult to deal with because there’s kind of a. The American workforce isn’t quite what it used to be. They’re not as attentive as they used to be, I’ll put it that way.

00:33:06:20 – 00:33:26:05

Desconocido

And I’m not trying to throw anyone under the bus. I’m just I’m just trying to be realistic. But I wanted to do what I could to have my games manufactured that protect American jobs and where I don’t have any of the the fuss of possibly having a problem with chemicals or shipping or any of that kind of

00:33:26:05 – 00:33:47:06

Desconocido

stuff. And so I got a prize from a Chinese company just to do my due diligence, and then I got a prize from an American manufacturer and the American manufacturers costing me. Before shipping their cost to me around $3 a game more than to have manufactured it in China.

00:33:47:15 – 00:34:06:07

Desconocido

However, because this is, I didn’t foresee any of this shipping stuff happening when I started this process in May of last year. But this year, I’m sorry in May of this year. I didn’t foresee any of this whole shipping debacle beginning big.

00:34:07:11 – 00:34:26:24

Desconocido

But what’s happened now is if I had had it manufactured in China, it would be getting ready to get on a boat now. Well, hopefully. But just getting it onto a container and then getting onto a boat, which used to cost some manufacturers somewhere between 830 $500, depending on what you’re shipping and how much of it.

00:34:27:17 – 00:34:44:02

Desconocido

That difference is now somewhere between 15 and $30,000 to get it put onto a container and then put on a boat to go over the ocean and then wait anywhere from three months to twelve months, depending on what happens and all of our ports.

00:34:44:04 – 00:35:02:10

Desconocido

Now it’s just become incredibly expensive and incredibly slow, and I’m not going to have to deal with any of that. I don’t know yet what it’s going to cost to ship my games. They’re almost done at the manufacturer in Michigan, which is about I’m actually good at geography, but right on the top of my head.

00:35:02:10 – 00:35:19:22

Desconocido

I’m not sure how many I’m going to say eight states away from Texas, which is where I am. But it’s definitely not going to take them six months to get here, and it’s definitely not going to be $30,000 because they’re just going to load up one truck and drive it down a highway to to Texas to bring

00:35:19:22 – 00:35:33:20

Desconocido

them to me. So I accidentally backed into what is now looking like a really sage idea. And I did it because I love my country and I want to make sure that people who want to work in the United States have jobs.

00:35:34:21 – 00:35:50:12

Desconocido

And I was willing to pay the extra money to do it. Yeah. And again, that two to $3 per game extra. I mean, I’m I’m not necessarily eating that. Some of that goes to my and in consumer as well, obviously, but.

00:35:52:03 – 00:36:10:08

Desconocido

If my game sells for 75. And I get to provide jobs to Americans. I’d rather do that than sell the game for 70 and have it manufactured in China. I don’t and I don’t think $5 has ever kept someone from buying a board game.

00:36:11:03 – 00:36:28:18

Desconocido

It’s and it’s rare. Yes, I mean. I personally wouldn’t think about $5 difference because I get 60 to 65. Unless it’s something that I have a very tight budget, I wouldn’t buy the idea about that. That’s that’s the truth.

00:36:28:23 – 00:36:42:17

Desconocido

What kind of components are in the game? A lot. There is a tweet. Gosh, your metric. I know I’m going to look up what it is. Oh, look, this is say, the word of a measurement likely that I will know what it is.

00:36:42:17 – 00:37:04:13

Desconocido

And secondly is the listeners that have to, you know, figure it out anyway. So the game, the the map, I guess, will say the board itself is 22 inches by 33 inches, OK, which is 55.88 centimeters by. 83.8, two centimeters as large.

00:37:05:07 – 00:37:15:16

Desconocido

And then and so then that folds down to it, folds in. It’s got six panels on it. So that folds down to eleven inches by eleven inches, about a foot by a foot, a little bit smaller than that.

00:37:16:24 – 00:37:32:02

Desconocido

And it’s really neat. It’s very colorful. It’s a beautiful map that I created myself, ironically, because I’m not artistic at all, but I found some online software that makes it very, very easy to make really cool looking maps.

00:37:32:23 – 00:37:50:03

Desconocido

And then there are the 32 general cards that I mentioned earlier that are all the special moves for each of the time you. There are 32 action cards because each time you’ll has four of the attack, attack, deploy in move.

00:37:50:07 – 00:38:13:16

Desconocido

So there’s those four cards for each time, you know also. And then there’s one more card that comes in for each time you and that is there. Standard rules set up card on one side of the card tells you how to set up a standard rules game for each time you ask tells you you put three troops

00:38:13:16 – 00:38:30:00

Desconocido

in your home castle, which is named this you put two troops in the city next to your home. Castle named this, and then you’re allowed to put one troop in any fortress that’s adjacent to either of them. And so that card just reminds you how to set up if you’re playing the standard rules game.

00:38:30:06 – 00:38:42:07

Desconocido

And then on the other side of that card, it tells you what your four actions every year are and in the correct order so that you’re not constantly having to look at the grid on the map that tells you the same information.

00:38:42:11 – 00:38:53:13

Desconocido

You can have it right there in front of you as you’re thinking about how you’re going to take your next move and where you’re going to do it. So that’s nine cards per Daniel. So 72 cards total and then each.

00:38:53:14 – 00:39:15:18

Desconocido

Daniel also gets 40 tokens. They’re double sided cardboard tokens, and they’re very unique. And here’s why. My brother in law is a super guy and he has. He’s 26 now, and he’s had macular degeneration since he was 13, and so he’s not blind.

00:39:15:23 – 00:39:35:09

Desconocido

But he he might eventually be, but he has no central vision in his eyes. He can only see through his peripheral vision around the edges. And so he struggles with some games due to small components and components that look very similar or feel the same.

00:39:36:15 – 00:39:53:01

Desconocido

So I made my tokens that represent your arms on the board, where each time your token is in a different color, and that’s both. It’s a it’s a large background color that’s all the way out to the edges on every side.

00:39:54:02 – 00:40:11:15

Desconocido

And then each token is also a different shape when you get that punch up board. There are actually eight different shapes of tokens that you’ll punch out. And so each Daniel has 40 tokens that are their own shape, their own color have their own clan symbol on it.

00:40:11:15 – 00:40:29:03

Desconocido

They call them born in Japan, emote in mode. And so there’s 320 of those total and a really nice rules booklet and then a really cool box that has unique artwork on it from my artist, who is a partner of mine in Alaska.

00:40:29:03 – 00:40:43:13

Desconocido

Her name is Sarah, and she did a one of a kind, unique watercolor painting for the front of the box and then a different watercolor painting for the back of the box. And I have both of those featured on the box.

00:40:43:13 – 00:40:59:08

Desconocido

So she’s really neat, lady. And I have to say I’m looking at the Kickstarter page right now. Yeah, they they love the box. Looks absolutely beautiful. Yeah, she’s really neat. She she was really concerned when she finished it to.

00:40:59:08 – 00:41:16:12

Desconocido

She said, Are you sure you don’t want me to put some color in there? I like something cherry blossoms or a red sun in the background? I said, No, no, this is Japan. This is minimalist. This is this is stripping away all the extras and getting the meat and potatoes on the table only, you know, that looks

00:41:16:13 – 00:41:37:20

Desconocido

absolutely. That looks beautiful. Have the same beautiful. But the challenge is one of the challenges that you have faced was, you know, I was starting to produce or producing the game. So far, production is about a month behind schedule.

00:41:38:01 – 00:41:51:13

Desconocido

I was hoping to have the games in hand by the beginning of September because I had a Comic-Con here in my hometown where I was going to try and sell some games and. I still don’t have one yet.

00:41:51:20 – 00:42:13:07

Desconocido

And now it’s looking like I’m probably not going to have them until at least November, if not mid to late November. And that’s not. Necessarily the companies, the manufacturers problem, they’re having the same hard time getting supplies in that the rest of us are having getting finished products and because of shipping delays and all that.

00:42:13:21 – 00:42:30:23

Desconocido

So I’m not upset about it. I’m just I’m a little bit sad. That’s that’s fair enough. They and other than that, I’ve just I’ve had a few people ask weird questions. There was no single player campaign when I began the very first Kickstarter campaign on June first.

00:42:31:11 – 00:42:53:09

Desconocido

There was no single player mode in the game. And then a guy who who was considering backing the Kickstarter sent me a message and said, Hey, no, no single player campaign makes it really hard for me to want to back this because I’m in an area where I can’t, I can’t really go out and do anything.

00:42:53:21 – 00:43:06:01

Desconocido

And so I would. You know, I play a lot of games by myself now, and it got me thinking, gosh, there’s probably a lot of people around the world. You know, you look at Australia right now that are on complete lockdown.

00:43:07:01 – 00:43:23:13

Desconocido

And so I very quickly developed just using what I’ve already had. I didn’t change anything about the game. I just made it figured out how to set the board up to where you could play it by yourself and do it from any of the eight different, you know, that are available.

00:43:24:11 – 00:43:41:24

Desconocido

And so that was an odd challenge that I had tackled in the very first week of my Kickstarter campaign and and got it nailed. I played through all eight scenarios by myself within two days and made sure that all of them were beatable, but not too easy.

00:43:42:15 – 00:44:05:00

Desconocido

And it was ironically well balanced, so I felt good about it. Price for a game Let’s let’s be blunt for a game without Minis $75 nowadays sounds like a lot of money when you know we’re used to getting a game for 4045 bucks.

00:44:05:12 – 00:44:22:19

Desconocido

How how do you in brackets and would say Justify, have you explain the the prize? So people who look at this can think, you know, OK, fair enough. Better. That’s a tough question. He didn’t tell me you were coming like that.

00:44:26:17 – 00:44:41:06

Desconocido

There is, you know, I just got it three new games this week in the mail that I had preordered and done some other stuff with. one of them was $40, one of them was 96 and the other one cost me zero.

00:44:44:10 – 00:44:57:24

Desconocido

I had to pay for shipping, but I didn’t have to pay for the game, so it is very odd. The 40 dollar campaign had I just played it for the first time last night, I’m sorry, the 40 dollar game I just played for the first time last night and it’s pretty good.

00:44:59:21 – 00:45:16:16

Desconocido

What’s it? What was really important to me about it? And part of the reason that I really appreciated getting it was because I think my wife will actually like it. But for $40, I’m willing to get a game that is, it’s a little bit superficial and I don’t want to drop anyone in the crease or throw anyone

00:45:16:16 – 00:45:28:04

Desconocido

under the bus, so I’m not going to name names or anything. The game is the strategy of it is all very surface level. It’s all right here. There’s no there’s no hidden tricks or anything like that going on in that game.

00:45:28:18 – 00:45:42:21

Desconocido

And for $40, there were a lot of neat, very cheap, little colored plastic tokens that are in four different colors because it’s up to a four player game. So, you know, there’s a bunch of yellow pieces, blue pieces, green pieces and red pieces, but they all look exactly the same.

00:45:42:21 – 00:46:07:09

Desconocido

There’s a different color, a plastic. Other than that, it was a small board, maybe I was probably 16 by 16, maybe 18 by 18 and. Some little player got placard things. Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is a 40 dollar game is not typically.

00:46:08:12 – 00:46:25:15

Desconocido

The. There’s a lot of really good ones, and I enjoy a lot of 40 dollar games. Hell, I’ve got one on my shelf right now that only cost me $6 that I love, but it only takes about ten to 15 minutes to play, so I can’t make a whole evening out of it.

00:46:26:20 – 00:46:43:01

Desconocido

In most $40 games, you can’t make a whole evening out of either. I typically will play two or three of those games on a Friday night with friends. A 75 dollar game is one that has replay ability that has depth to it, that has.

00:46:45:08 – 00:47:06:14

Desconocido

Much more going on below the surface of the game than what’s immediately relative and visible whenever you first start playing it. And that’s the kind of game that Daniel since so is, it seems all very surface level. Your first couple of turns, I move my troops, I attack with these guys.

00:47:07:02 – 00:47:24:12

Desconocido

I did. And then people, once they’re familiar with the mechanics and they’re not thinking so hard about what how to do, what they want to do. They realized that the game is not just playing the board, but it’s also playing your opponents.

00:47:25:02 – 00:47:44:12

Desconocido

I make a very clear point in the rulebook to say that. You can talk to your opponents. This is not a silent game. This is a game where you’re expected to say, Hey, I tell you what, if you don’t do that to me right now, then I won’t do this certain thing to you later.

00:47:45:00 – 00:48:01:21

Desconocido

And you and I can focus on this other guy instead. And the brilliant part, the beautiful part is unlike some games out there, you’re not expected to do what you said you were going to do. It’s. The how do I put this?

00:48:03:04 – 00:48:25:13

Desconocido

There’s a term in old and Japanese culture called sincerity, and I know, you know, the definition of that word. But a lot of people tend to mistake that for honesty, and it is not the same thing. Sincerity is the ability to say something and act like you believe it to be true or act like you mean it

00:48:26:16 – 00:48:53:19

Desconocido

. And that’s not the case, necessarily. So. Between that and the. Strategic differences between the general cards and the game. There’s a massive amount of replayability in time, your sense of how just a single player you have to play it at least eight times just to have seen the game from those eight different points of view of each

00:48:53:19 – 00:49:19:08

Desconocido

of those dime you. That alone is really different for most strategy games. You know, once you’ve beaten risk. There’s only about two or three different ways to normally get that accomplished. But. And the last question that I wanted to ask you, because taking a look at your Kickstarter, you haven’t really made this campaign to fund the game

00:49:20:03 – 00:49:39:09

Desconocido

. This is correct. I mean, you were asking for like $300, which definitely would not be enough to fund the game. So what was the point of the Kickstarter in the first place? Well, so my first Kickstarter campaign was June first through June 30th, and it failed.

00:49:39:10 – 00:49:53:18

Desconocido

Also, that campaign was to try to get the game, to try to get the game manufactured, you know, to pay for the manufacturing of the game itself and of the money that I asked for, I only got about 17%.

00:49:55:06 – 00:50:11:15

Desconocido

And the reason is because, like I said, this game is very new. I did not want to spend two or three years marketing it and spending money out of my own pocket. That may that I may or may not recuperate in the long run on the next Kickstarter campaign.

00:50:11:16 – 00:50:25:09

Desconocido

You know, I didn’t want to spend two or three years on a game because I’ve already made 30 games, and now that I know what it takes to get it manufactured, how to get the game finished, the kind of feel that I want for the look that I want because now I’ve made one.

00:50:25:24 – 00:50:37:08

Desconocido

I know that I want to make more. I want to finish some of the other ones. And to do that, I need to get this one out there and sell it and use that money to help fund the manufacturing of the next one.

00:50:39:03 – 00:51:03:20

Desconocido

And then, you know, continue to build that snowball up until it’s so big that I don’t have to keep pushing it uphill and it’ll start rolling downhill on its own, so. But while I ran that first failed campaign in June, I picked up someone who was interested in getting the game manufactured.

00:51:04:17 – 00:51:22:22

Desconocido

As a. I wouldn’t even say a silent partner. I got a no interest loan from someone I know who wants to see the game get manufactured to see if it will lead to bigger prospects for gaming in the future.

00:51:22:22 – 00:51:36:15

Desconocido

For me to help me get this first one off the ground so that we can get it out there, get it selling and then begin moving and making other games. And so. I wasn’t going to say no for sure.

00:51:37:07 – 00:51:58:11

Desconocido

And, you know, I just basically looked him in the eye and said, I will make this happen one way or another. So this Kickstarter campaign that’s running right now, it’s just to get the game out there. When I ran the first campaign, of course, some of my friends back the game and a few of my work cohort

00:51:58:16 – 00:52:12:01

Desconocido

back the game. And then I also picked up a lot of people from Facebook and some people that just saw it on Kickstarter and liked the look of it and wanted to be a part of it. And I just got some random people that were willing to say, Hey, I’ll buy this game.

00:52:12:19 – 00:52:23:17

Desconocido

And so I thought, since I’m getting it manufactured now, if I put it back on Kickstarter again, there will probably be a few more people who will say, Oh, I like the look of this game, I’m willing to get it.

00:52:24:12 – 00:52:38:12

Desconocido

And so now that it’s getting manufactured, I wanted to make sure that, you know, that we started moving forward on all of that as well. Okay. Considering that this interview, even though at the time we’re recording this on the 17th of October, is going to come out in the next three or four weeks.

00:52:38:24 – 00:52:53:04

Desconocido

So the Kickstarter is going to be over. The game be very close to being finished and produce. How are people going to be able to buy it? I have a website that already has the game up there for sale and I’m accepting people’s money for it already.

00:52:55:16 – 00:53:07:02

Desconocido

I remember I told you right at the beginning of this, or it wasn’t even right at the beginning, it was several minutes ago. I paid for a game $96 that just came in the mail. I paid for that game in March.

00:53:07:09 – 00:53:23:24

Desconocido

OK, so. I don’t think I’m the only board game enthusiast who is willing to pay for something that, you know, might be a month or two down the road. These games are already at the manufacturer, so the only thing we’re waiting on is for them to get into my grubby little hands so that I can pack them

00:53:23:24 – 00:53:44:01

Desconocido

and ship them. And so I’m taking pre-payments through my website. That’s warrior with a pin dot com. That’s not that’s not correct. It’s warrior with a pin dot games. And to get to Daniel Senso the easy way, just go to Warrior with a pin dot games slash store.

00:53:45:14 – 00:53:56:18

Desconocido

Everyone from out of the link between the main page and the store doesn’t work for people, so it also makes you log in and do a bunch of other weird stuff. So you can just go directly to the store at that at that link.

00:53:57:20 – 00:54:10:06

Desconocido

And that’s a way for you to if you’re interested in it at all, to go in and get your purchased our ship anywhere in the world. But that website does not allow me to ship outside the United States.

00:54:10:17 – 00:54:31:09

Desconocido

So there is a small section underneath the game itself and in the main part of the store that says if you are outside the United States and would like to purchase a copy of Daniel, so you’ll have to contact Nathan at Warrior with a PennDOT games, and that’s me with your credit card info and your shipping info

00:54:31:18 – 00:54:56:12

Desconocido

. I already have two games sold to people in Australia. three. Actually, now that I’ll be shipping as soon as I get them in hand and one. To where was that guy? Germany? Okay. And they emailed me a credit card number and a shipping address, and none of them have been charged yet because I’m still not 100% sure

00:54:56:12 – 00:55:09:22

Desconocido

how much that shipping is going to cost me. But I am getting the. United States, one they already have shipping, figure it out, so I’ve already got that text in there, so all that stuff’s pretty easy, but yeah, it’s already up there.

00:55:10:02 – 00:55:30:14

Desconocido

Have you considered using the distribution to get the game into people’s hands without you having to do all of that? No. Yes. I’ve considered it. But that’s another thing that will drive up the cost of this game and possibly drive up the price of the game that I don’t, I’m happy to do it myself.

00:55:30:24 – 00:55:50:02

Desconocido

Plus, it lets me know that I have the game in hand. I saw it. The box is perfect. There’s no dents on it. Everything’s hunky dory. I wrap it up myself. I box it myself. I’m kind of. I’ve been in the printing industry since 1998, so I’m very accustomed to examining work, making sure it’s perfect and then

00:55:50:02 – 00:56:09:13

Desconocido

packaging it for someone else. Because I do that and I work every day, so I’m very happy to do that packaging and shipping myself in knots and being able to see it myself and make sure everything’s good. That’s going to make it very difficult for us, Europeans to be able to get our hands on it because shipping

00:56:09:13 – 00:56:25:05

Desconocido

from the U.S. to Europe is, to put it in one word, horrific. And then we need to pay VAT on top of that so that you’re not going to make it mean if I wanted a copy of the game and see it would be considerably more than $75.

00:56:26:21 – 00:56:43:05

Desconocido

How much so I see online a lot about the VAT taxes and all that stuff that you guys have. How much is that 21% for board games? So on top of the $75 and the shipping, I will have to pay 25, 21%.

00:56:44:10 – 00:57:09:12

Desconocido

So there’d be another $15, so 90, 90 plus the shipping and the shipping will also get the 21%. So if your shipping is $10, then I will end up paying 12.1. Hmm. That’s terrible. Yeah. Tell me about that, that’s that’s one of the reasons why I’ve gone from bagging three or four Kickstarter’s a month to thinking very

00:57:09:12 – 00:57:26:08

Desconocido

, very carefully because we get screwed very easily. That’s why I was asking about the distribution, because that would ease considerably. At the very least, the costs of shipping, which again, something like that from the U.S., I cannot imagine, is going to be less than 20 or $25.

00:57:27:11 – 00:57:40:18

Desconocido

Huh. Yeah, I when I ran my first campaign, I did have a good estimate of about $26 for shipping to international. That was my average. It was my world average was $26, so I just charge that world average to everybody.

00:57:41:04 – 00:57:52:18

Desconocido

But I’m hoping it’s going to be that or less this time. I just, I don’t know yet. And I hesitate to get a quote until I actually have the games in hand, because six weeks from now, I may be drastically different.

00:57:53:18 – 00:58:13:00

Desconocido

Well, fingers crossed because I really love to be able to say this game, you know, at least some shops and some conventions here in Iceland next year, for instance, would be great to see that. So what’s this? Well, I hope you have some retailers that listen to your show, too, because if they’ll email me, I’ll make them

00:58:13:00 – 00:58:23:13

Desconocido

a special deal on the game so that, you know, they can buy a box of them. A carton comes with six games in it and I can I can sell them six and they can put them in their shop and make a profit on it.

00:58:23:18 – 00:58:39:02

Desconocido

What things crossed that would be very great indeed. We’ll see what we can do about that. What’s next for you? In what way? Jamie, are you going to be, are you going to make more games? You can say, Oh gosh, what do you have in mind?

00:58:39:18 – 00:58:53:20

Desconocido

I’ve already started down this path. There’s no way I’d turn it around now. Like I mentioned earlier, I’ve already designed about 30 games now. They’re not all marketable and I get that some of the games are just for me, but I already know what the next one is going to be.

00:58:54:17 – 00:59:06:15

Desconocido

And probably the one after that, I’ve got that narrowed down to two or three different options, but the next one is also set in Japan, which is not the only thing I do. It’s just one of the things that I do best.

00:59:07:07 – 00:59:26:03

Desconocido

But it’s a much more scaled down experience. There is no board at all. It’s not even technically a board game, it’s a card game, but it involves cards, dice and tokens. It’s for one to six players. It is fully co-op.

00:59:26:11 – 00:59:39:00

Desconocido

You’re always on the same team. And not only are you on the same team, but it’s not one of those similar co-ops where if I win, you lose. Even though we were on the same team the whole time, no, it’s either we all win or we all lose.

00:59:39:14 – 00:59:59:19

Desconocido

And so you’re really making decisions based on what’s best for the group, not just yourself. And it’s called hunting the tiger of Tai. And it’s a game. one of the dangers of the 16th century time period, that time your center was set in one of the debut of that period’s names.

00:59:59:24 – 01:00:12:12

Desconocido

His name is Typekit, a single. He is super famous in Japan, but not very. Many people outside of Japan know who he is. There are statues of him, and there many of them in Japan. I’ll put it that way.

01:00:12:12 – 01:00:27:21

Desconocido

I want to say that there’s at least a dozen, but he’s. He was just considered to be one of the greatest military minds of their history, so. But there was a battle. I don’t want to get into the whole history of the thing.

01:00:28:04 – 01:00:40:23

Desconocido

Let me let me put it to you like this. It’s too long of a story. There are six different people that you can choose to be when you play, and each one of them plays a little bit differently.

01:00:40:23 – 01:00:57:21

Desconocido

They each have their own special abilities, and their job is to go find Typekit singin in the middle of a battle and defeat him together. Every time you defeat an enemy, the the game is basically a series of doors.

01:00:57:22 – 01:01:09:10

Desconocido

Each player duels and an individual enemy. And when you beat one, you then find you find a new one in duel him and then you beat him and you find a new guy and you do him until there’s no one left to duel.

01:01:09:14 – 01:01:22:12

Desconocido

And it’s just talk about Schengen himself. His nickname was the tiger of Kai. That’s why the game is called hunting the tiger of Cod. And and then it is the six of you or the three of you or the two of you.

01:01:22:12 – 01:01:36:09

Desconocido

Or sometimes you’ll play a six player game and only three of you are actually alive by the time you get there. So it’s however, many of you are alive versus him, and he is way stronger, way tougher, way bigger than all of you.

01:01:36:20 – 01:01:53:09

Desconocido

But as you were getting to him, every time you defeated an enemy, you got a new skill. You basically level up, you get better and better and better and better. And so that when you finally get to him, you’re no slouch yourself, but you’re not quite as good as he is.

01:01:53:09 – 01:02:08:13

Desconocido

And that’s the scary part. So it’s it’s really exciting. It’s a very fast, almost like a party atmosphere because you’re rooting for each other. Oh, come on. Just just get it one more time, not him, you know, and it just gets really exciting.

01:02:08:13 – 01:02:25:12

Desconocido

So it’s a total different style of game from time you’ve seen so. But again, I love that setting so much that I put it in the same time period in place. So it’s something, well, very much look forward to talking with you when that comes out, either on Kickstarter or whatever.

01:02:26:01 – 01:02:42:13

Desconocido

That sounds great. Really exciting. Nathan, thank you. Thank you very much indeed for being with me today. This has been most interesting, and I’m sure that an awful lot of people are going to have an awful lot of questions about manufacturing in the US and how it’s going for you.

01:02:42:14 – 01:02:56:16

Desconocido

So hopefully this will help. Well, I really appreciate you having me on, and I mean, I can sit and talk about games for hours, I think you probably figured that out, though. Yes. Which makes it very dangerous to talk to me because I could do exactly the same thing.

01:02:57:12 – 01:03:11:17

Desconocido

But we’re coming close to midnight here and I have a 6:00 a.m. start. So very good. I need to be careful with all of this Premiere in now. Nathan, thank you. Thank you very much. And that’s being absolutely brilliant having you around.

01:03:12:09 – 01:03:55:18

Desconocido

Have a fantastic night. My game and brother, it’s autism. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. It’s really wonderful to have you there and generally appreciated the GM’s Magazine podcast is produced by Packhorse here, with assistance from Chris Diaz and Martin Reid and the amazing bunch of listeners all over the world.

01:03:56:07 – 01:04:08:23

Desconocido

The theme tune is by Kev about. Please let us know what you think about the podcast by emailing our podcast at GM as a magazine dot com, or find us on our Facebook page. You can also follow me on Twitter.

01:04:08:24 – 01:04:23:00

Desconocido

I am at GM’s magazine and Chris Hayes at Deus Ex Machina. Well, please do join our Discord server. We very much look forward to hearing from you. But until the next time game on.


If you would like to participate or sponsor this podcast, or if you would like to send us your questions or comments, get in touch. You can email me on podcast@gmsmagazine.com or find me in Twitter as @gmsmagazine. and Chris is @diasexmachina

And please, leave a review about the podcast in whatever platform you listen. It really helps a lot and it means even more to me. Thank you.


Thank you for listening. It truly is wonderful to have you there and genuinely appreciated. The GMS Magazine Podcast is produced by Paco Garcia with assistance from Chris Dias and Martin Reed and the amazing bunch of listeners all over the world.  The theme tune is by Kev Adset.


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